Jennifer Gearing ([info]jennifergearing) wrote,
@ 2006-10-26 21:43:00
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Entry tags:human: ranting, society: race

On "Integration" and Language.
I've been turning this over in my head today, and I finally feel like posting about it.

I had my final lecture for Colonialism and Independence in South East Asia yesterday. Carl's one of those fascinating lecturers where you just feel quite overwhelmed by the amount of stuff in his brain. But that's rather beside the point.

We were talking about Malaysia and Singapore, and the problems they've had with ethnic divisions, particularly between Malays, Chinese and Indians. With reference to Singapore, there was discussion of Lee Kuan Yew's enforcement of multiculturalism, where he decried Malay and Indian "ethnic enclaves" (point of note for those not aware; Singapore has a Chinese majority). His solution was to put everyone in lovely new public housing, but place restrictions on the number of each ethnic minority allowed to live in each housing block. The effect? A Chinese majority in each housing block, to keep those uppity Malays and Indians in check.

Whilst I doubt Western countries would go so far as to legislate that only so many of each ethnic minority is allowed to live in a particular area, the seemingly endless stream of complaints about minorities 'secluding themselves in their own communities' and 'enclaves' and 'ghettos' and such like seem, to me, to come from the same idea. An at least subconscious feeling of discomfort that there are places in our society where whites aren't a visible majority. A failure to understand that maybe people of colour need those spaces and communities sometimes, because all other spaces are dominated by whites. In a community that's 'integrated' the way most whites would consider 'integrated', whites still dominate. Because too many whites would likely perceive a truly integrated community as not integrated but 'overrun by minorities'.

In a related note, I'm tired of white people assuming that anyone speaking a different language in public is one of "those dirty migrants who won't learn English". Unless you look white, in which case everyone praises you for how learned and multicultural you are and how clever you must be for learning another language. No, I'm not bitter or anything. But seriously, more than half the people who've been all "Oh, I could never learn another language, you're so clever" back when my Cantonese skills weren't nearly as deteriorated as they are now, have also trotted out the "dirty migrants who won't learn English properly" trope. And it makes me want to scream and throw things. Because honestly, "Oh but I wouldn't move to another country" only goes so far. Because we don't tell migrants who've learned English that they're so clever. They just get derision when they haven't, or when they struggle. We expect them to do it like it's easy. Not to mention the fact that I've had way too many whites, after praising me for being so clever, withdraw that praise after I mention my mother is Chinese, because then apparently my language skills are because my mother won't integrate and is trying to brainwash me against my Australianness and what does my father think about all this? *beats head against wall*.




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[info]augustuscaesar
2006-10-26 12:01 pm UTC (link)
Some of my favourite parts of Melbourne are the areas where a particular migrant group (or three) is dominant. It makes me sad to think that so many people are too busy whining about people refusing to integrate that they miss out on the atmosphere of those areas. There are a couple of suburbs of Melbourne I wouldn't chose to live in, but that's simply because I would feel a little lost and out of place, which just proves the argument that people feel a need to be surrounded by at least some others whom they share a cultural heritage with.

My pet hate with languages is the people who say we shouldn't let anyone into Australia unless they can speak English. Because, y'know, learning a foreign language is a priority when you're starving, or forced to escape from a genocidal war *face palm* Of course, the easiest solution would be for the government to start a highly organised scheme to provide free ESL classes to all new Australians, incorporating information about laws and community assistance and just day-to-day help with life in a different country, but that would be too helpful, and more people might want to move here. Gasp. Better to lock kids up in the middle of the desert, obviously.

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[info]neaf
2006-10-26 12:02 pm UTC (link)
*hands you your bitchslappin' mitts*

baby, have at it. because if people said that shit to me or even hinted at it? *twitching rage face*

i used my Superwoman!smash icon here in honor of abovementioned mitts.

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[info]baralier
2006-10-26 01:40 pm UTC (link)
Multiculturalism, Integration and Cultural Diversity all have their good and bad points. Having had two goes at learning German I know the hardest thing about a new language is being able to practice it in an area that doesn't speak it much.

I remember reading about how bad the Greeks and Italians were treated when they came to Australia in the post war years. Ironically enough they were some of the loudest detractors of the "boat people" anti-Vietnamese sentiment of the 70s and 80s. I wonder how many of the Vietnamese feel about the Middle Eastern immigrants. I wouldn't be surprised to learn the cycle was still continuing.

The flip side of showing support for Chinese New Year or Lebanese festivals, or Indigenous festivals or what have you is that if I want to celebrate my own heritage, there are people who will point the finger of Colonialism or White Australia.

I suppose it just reinforces that it doesn't matter what you do there's always someone around to criticize.

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[info]jennifergearing
2006-10-26 09:42 pm UTC (link)
Gee, that cycle of migrant detracting would have nothing to do with the good migrant bad migrant myth bollocks that the powerful keep reinforcing and perpetuating, would it? And certainly no one could've been targetting Greeks and Italians for interviews about the bad Vietnamese migrants so they could have a whole "See? The good migrants like them, so it's okay!" parade, could they? And the fact that you need to wonder how the Vietnamese feel about Middle Eastern immigrants might suggest that they're not the loudest detractors. Which may stick a spanner in you cycle theory, no?

As for the festivals, surely you can see the difference between the dominant culture group wanting a festival to celebrate the very culture that's dominant in everyday life, and minority culture groups wanting a festival to celebrate their, wa-hey, minority culture? And quite frankly, when the ways of celebrating white Australian culture predominantly involve celebrating the awful shit we've done to other people, or what we've gained from that exploitation?

I was wondering when the "white people are just as oppressed" trope would come out. You're glib little "always someone to criticise" comment assumes that those who criticise certain ways of celebrating white Australian culture are comparable in number and power to those whinging about dirty migrants. Which comes across as quite dismissive. You may wish to keep that in mind in future.

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[info]baralier
2006-10-27 07:44 am UTC (link)
I think you've missed my point. Take off the outrage blinkers and read it again.

First off my experience of Greek and Italian migrants being anti-Asian are from personal observation of comments from work colleagues or people I knew at the time. I'm not aware of it being a topic for interviews.

Yes I'm aware of the differences between majority and minority cultural celebrations.

As for accusing me of dragging out the "white people are just as oppressed" wow! Now who's being dismissive? I was actually thinking of heritage celebrations like St. George's Day or St. Andrew's Day rather than Australia Day but thanks for making your own assumptions and criticizing me for them.

I suppose it really reinforces my view that "it doesn't matter what you do there's always someone around to criticize".

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[info]jennifergearing
2006-10-27 10:31 am UTC (link)
I was actually thinking of heritage celebrations like St. George's Day or St. Andrew's Day rather than Australia Day but thanks for making your own assumptions and criticizing me for them.

Wow, I'm supposed to read minds now? And what part of "predominantly involve" did you not get? If you're not going to be clear about what you're discussing, particularly when you're bringing up a point of discussion that's peripherally rather than directly related to my original two points, then expect me to instictively know which level of obscurity you're referring to, well, forgive me for not being particularly enthusiastic about engaging in such a game.

I suppose it really reinforces my view that "it doesn't matter what you do there's always someone around to criticize".

Thankyou for completely ignoring my explanation of why the above comment comes across as dismissive and a manifestation of that very trope, because of the implication that the criticisms are of equivalent influence.

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[info]tekanji
2006-10-26 10:35 pm UTC (link)
Having had two goes at learning German I know the hardest thing about a new language is being able to practice it in an area that doesn't speak it much.

Learning Japanese right now in Japan, I can tell you right now that I need my English speaking friends. I study the language for upwards of 5 hours a day, speak it with my Japanese and non-English speaking friends, and after all that I'm tired. I just want to go home and relax. And that means speaking in English.

Because, you know what? When you're in the early stages of learning, like I am, even holding a simple conversation takes a lot more work than holding an equivalent (or more complex) conversation in English.

Just this Tuesday I had two hours of private lessons where I just chatted with my teacher for the entire time. Normally I'm doing lessons, or homework, or whatever and I've always considered that the "hard" stuff. Chatting? I say whatever stupid crap comes out of my mouth and it's all good. And that's the way it started, but an hour later of non-stop chatting and I was having trouble listening and forming answers. My head literally hurt. I went home, got back to English mode, and I was fine again.

So, really? I think native speakers should have a lot more sympathy for immigrants -- especially first gen immigrants -- because learning a new language is hard and for some people it will never become "natural" to them; especially if they began trying to learn at a late stage in their life. Not to mention that second gens, living in their "ethnic enclaves" as they do, never seem to have any problem with the language of the country (indeed, in my experience most only have a functional knowledge of their parents' native language, and wil often lament about it and/or officially study it in school).

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[info]jennifergearing
2006-10-27 10:39 am UTC (link)
Thankyou for this. I think one of the problems is that a lot of native speakers in countries like Australia and the US don't quite realise that there's a difference between learning another languague here, and learning another language in the place it's natively spoken.

And that's a really good point about second-gens. I'm a somewhat different case, given I'm mixed and my mother learned some English in school before she came to Australia because she was living in Hong Kong, but one of the comments I always, ALWAYS used to get from Asian friends of the family was that their children couldn't speak Cantonese nearly as well as I could, and most of those friends were living in so-called enclaves.

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[info]sugarcontent
2006-10-26 05:51 pm UTC (link)
What annoys me most about demanding that immigrants speak English fluently and learn about Australian culture and heritage is that I'd wager a large proportion of Australian citizens whose first language is English probably wouldn't meet the standards they expect immigrants to meet.

Plus, the kind of people who whinge the loudest about 'filthy, ignorant immigrants' are probably the same people who go backpacking in conservative countries and completely disregard the local customs and can't even be bothered to even learn how to say 'hello' and 'thank-you' in the language of whatever country they're in.

Because let's be honest, it has absolutely nothing to do with respect for our country's national identity (because let's face it, what national identity? Australia is a multicultural country, so surely our identity should be too) and it has everything to do with cultural supremacy. Deep, deep down (or not so deep really), it's all about thinking that we're better than them.

Ahem.

That might have been a little tetchy, but I spend my whole day surrounded by ignorant fascists. It gets to me.

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[info]tekanji
2006-10-26 10:43 pm UTC (link)
I'd wager a large proportion of Australian citizens whose first language is English probably wouldn't meet the standards they expect immigrants to meet.

I can't speak for Australia, but my experiences with people who are ESL in America and Canada has often been just that. Not everyone, of course, but pretty much anyone who had been studying English for some number of years.

Plus, the kind of people who whinge the loudest about 'filthy, ignorant immigrants' are probably the same people who go backpacking in conservative countries...

Or the ones who never leave their native country. I've talked to a few people in the US who were basically of the mindset that the US was the greatest country in the world and therefore travelling outside it was not something they really felt they needed to do.

Deep, deep down (or not so deep really), it's all about thinking that we're better than them.

Again, speaking from what I've seen of people in America (sorry to make this comment so America-centred, but it's where my experience is......), I think that's exactly where that attitude comes from.

So, yeah, I guess the short version is IAWTC. :)

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[info]dsthenes
2006-10-27 12:57 am UTC (link)
I detest gated communities. So, by the same extension, should I hate 'ethnic enclaves'? Pls advise.

D.

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[info]jennifergearing
2006-10-27 10:57 am UTC (link)
Gated communities and so-called ethnic enclaves are actually quite different. Gated communities are created to exclude, ethnic 'enclaves' are actually much more naturally evolving, where migrants start to form communities with people who often share their difficulties of trying to adjust to a new place, and don't have that exclusionary motivation.

So I guess it depends on whay you detest gated communities. Of course, I'd then ask if your dislike of gated communities extends to minority spaces.

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[info]dsthenes
2006-10-27 02:03 pm UTC (link)
Hard to explain/distil (or is that 'distill'? the pedant in me will need to check later). So here's something garbled out of my mish mash of thoughts, feelings and lifelong philosophies and, well, if it goes past you, that's life. People mostly talk just to hear themselves, eh? (Oi, I'm cynical tonight).

Gated communities are a fantastic way of creating the Other. If you like, it's xenophobia writ small. Anything outside the gate, well, I don't have to give a shit. It's not me, it's not my problem, I don't have to care or empathise. I'll look after my own and everyone else can go hang. So ... I don't. Or I'm less likely to.

I get stuck in ruts, mental pathways, familiarities and when I do encounter something different it's OMG fight or flight time.

I've never liked fenced yards for the same reason. Community killers. How can we communicate when we're busy building walls?

Often I think that violence (let's pick on one thing, though it could well be far broader) occurs as a result of a lack of empathy. We fail to see ourselves in others. So they're merely the Other. Building walls (I'll keep my privilege and you can go hang) doesn't help this at all.

And, yano, retirement homes make me feel weird for the same reason. It's a similar principle, I feel.

And should my dislike of gated communities extend to minorities spaces?

Immanuel Kant might say that it ought to.

It'd be nice if there were no walls anywhere. Nothing separating us all from each other, and causing (or, perhaps, conflating) ignorance and misunderstanding so that we viewed fellow humans with fear.

I'd like that.

*shrugs*

I think I'm tending anarchical/hippie tonight -- let's blow things up *and* be love.

I think I'll leave it there -- I'm rambling incoherently.

D.



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[info]sigelphoenix
2006-10-27 02:06 am UTC (link)
I ... Thank you.

These two issues are actually pretty prominent in my mind right now, because we just had a discussion in one of my classes about how physically draining it is to integrate into a foreign-language speaking culture. My professor, a native Spanish speaker, and a classmate who speaks Bengali, both attested to this difficulty.

As for the whole majority-keeping-minorities-in-check thing, yeah. That's one of the biggest fears dominant groups have about safe spaces, I think - it's so disturbing to think that the minority group gets to speak without dominant people there to monitor, regulate, and approve. And then I think - well, welcome to the world of the minority, where we have to endure you talking about us without our supervision. All the time.

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[info]jennifergearing
2006-10-27 11:15 am UTC (link)
Indeed. You're welcome.

It's interesting actually, I'd forgotten a lot of that language stuff from when I was younger until I was actually writing this post, and remembering resulted in a realisation of just how powerful white privilege really is. I mean, it's not like I was going around denying its existence, but that memory really drove it home, to me.

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[info]ishryal
2006-10-27 05:36 am UTC (link)
It makes me wonder sometimes.

Personally speaking, there is no place outside prison that I do not feel safe walking in. People are not as bad, and areas are not as bad, as A.C.A. makes it out to be. YES, there are areas that I wouldn't leave my car unlocked, but that's more to do with common sense, not because this or that area is 'ethnically orientated'... indeed, some of the places here in Melbourne that I am more careful are typically white or third or forth generation Australians.

So to hear the likes of Howard and his ilk go on about ethnic divides etc makes me wonder where they get their research from. I laugh at the prospects of an 'Australian values' test. Yes, ALL who come to Australia, whether it be tourists and immigrants should be aware of the laws of the society as it stands now (asylum seekers should be considered different since the reasons of their arrival are different). But on the flip side, ALL laws of a society are based on the beliefs of the people in it... and everyone has the right to question current and promote new laws in order for the law to reflect their values, so long as they do so within the framework of the constitution (that which is outside the legal system... but even that too can be changed if society so wishes it).

Also, chances are that the laws and values that 'Australians hold so dear' are fairly common and universal... Australia is not so different or unique in that regard. Philosophy and outlook of the 'typical' Australian may differ from other countries, but to push those is to get close to border of religious and idealogical ideals... something I believe the government has no business in dictating.

As for the language, IMO it has something to do with people's insecurities. That old "if I can't understand them, how do I know if they are talking about me?". Well, for one, it's rude to evesdrop on another person's conversation, so regardless of if they speak in English or not, mind your own business. Secondly, targeting a business to a particular language speaking group creates niche markets... it's good business sense. Creates employment, helps those newly arrived here to get jobs. Thirdly, stay here long enough and go out enough times and I'm betting you can't HELP but pick up on some English... most of our media is in English, as is our taxation system, health system etc. Chances are, you may not be able to speak or write perfect English, but if need be you could get your message across. Fourthly, it creates even more jobs... interpreters, multiple copies creating work for the print industry and more. Fifthly (and I'm pushing the number naming here), just because a shop has signage in another language does NOT prevent you from entering and looking about. The main language in business is money, and Australia has a single currency, so everyone speaks it. The person in the shop may not be able to say "go the Don's!", but no doubt they can say "two dollars". You want more customer service, take your business to elsewhere... market forces will decide in the long run if that shop stays competitive as a foreign language speaking shop.

I DO believe there should be a single language as the BASIS of communications within a country... here it's English, and realy, unless one is an idiot, we shouldn't believe that that is going to change anytime soon. But it should be considered the first method, and from there if need be it can be re-interpreted into other languages. That's just being efficient. But from a personal point of view, it looks neeto when I see notices published in multiple languages. And might I just say, thank the universe for SBS that actually has interesting things on TV to watch.

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[info]keithnola
2006-10-29 05:18 am UTC (link)
This post made me laugh. I am from New Orleans, Louisiana. I am now in Québec. Québec controls it's own immigration and has laws promoting and protecting French. What's interesting is that most of the immigrants who have come to Québec over the past 29 years or so, have come to Québec, learned English and have all but refused to learn French.

French in North America has been nearly eliminated in all corners except in Québec. English is so powerfull and so omni-present(via music, movies, products, etc) that French, even here in Québec, is threatened.

The Québécois are more than happy to accomodate new immigrants, but all the new immigrants come here and refuse to learn French, instead learn English and become ghettoized within Québec.

Being an American, even though I am Irish and Cajun, I think it's hilarious when I hear English speakers bitch and complain that their language is threatened. In Québec French is threatened, not by Vietnamese, Japanese, Chinese or Arabic, but English.

When the laws protecting French were passed back in the late 70's Anglo-Québeckers whined as if they were being treated like immigrants. Québec bent over backwards to please these Anglos yet they still bitch about having to be bilingual in a province that has 81% french speaking majority. Yet redneck Americans, Australians, English Canadians bitch and moan about a minority speaking another language in their midsts.

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You go girl!
[info]krisandapril
2006-11-18 09:02 pm UTC (link)
I think you're 100% right. I'm glad you blogged about it, because people need to read this -- about how it really is.

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My blog
[info]krisandapril
2006-11-18 09:03 pm UTC (link)
Oh, my real blog address is www.krisandapril.us

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